Ben Lamm - De-Extinction & Colossal Biosciences

This Joe Rogan Experience episode features Joe Rogan interviewing Ben Lamm, the CEO and co-founder of Colossal Biosciences, a company focused on de-extinction and species preservation. Lamm explains that the company's mission is to bring back extinct species and leverage those technologies for conservation and human healthcare.

Lamm recounts how he became involved in this field after a conversation with George Church, a prominent figure in synthetic biology at Harvard. Initially skeptical, Lamm was convinced after researching Church's work on mammoths and their potential ecological benefits in the Arctic.

The woolly mammoth was chosen as the initial project due to Church's existing research, its potential ecosystem impact, and applications to elephant conservation. Lamm explains the de-extinction process, which involves finding and reconstructing ancient DNA, often fragmented and degraded. Colossal has gathered numerous mammoth samples, some dating back over a million years. Reconstructing the genome is a complex task, relying heavily on AI and computation to map the ancient DNA to the Asian elephant genome, which shares a high degree of similarity with mammoths.

Lamm emphasizes that achieving 100% of the extinct species' genome isn't necessary, with synthetic biology playing a crucial role in bridging genetic gaps. He also highlights the lack of a global DNA bio vault and Colossal's efforts to advocate for its creation with the US government.

A key achievement is the creation of woolly mice, serving as a proof of technology. By editing genes related to mammoth hair, Colossal demonstrated the end-to-end process of ancient DNA analysis, comparison to living relatives, and precise genetic editing. These mice are used for educational purposes and allow for rapid testing of genetic edits due to their short gestation period, unlike elephants. Colossal has also successfully grown mammoth hair follicles in a lab using induced pluripotent stem cells.

Beyond mammoths, Lamm discusses projects involving the Tasmanian tiger (thylacine) and the dodo. Well-preserved thylacine samples, including a 'miracle pup' with a nearly complete genome, were discovered in museum collections. Despite reported sightings, Lamm believes the thylacine is unlikely to still exist due to negative testing.

Colossal is also actively engaged in species preservation efforts, including creating a population genomics map for bison and assisting with wolf conservation. This work led to the cloning of the red wolf, enhancing its genetic diversity. Lamm expresses frustration with government agencies hesitant to adopt cloning technology for red wolf conservation.

In a notable announcement, Lamm reveals the creation of three direwolves. Using ancient DNA from a tooth and skull, Colossal identified genes defining the direwolf. These direwolves, named Romulus, Remis, and Khesi, reside on a secure ecological preserve and exhibit hunting behavior. They are not intended for release into the wild.

The discussion touches on philosophical and ethical debates surrounding de-extinction, including the 'playing God' argument and complexities in species definitions. The creation of direwolves sparks debate about their authenticity, with Lamm emphasizing functional similarity and ecological role as key considerations.

Lamm briefly mentions potential future projects, such as the saber-tooth tiger (Homotherium), and expresses concerns about the misuse of de-extinction technology to bring back dangerous animals. The conversation explores rewilding considerations, emphasizing collaboration with ecologists, conservationists, and local communities. Colossal is also working on projects to help species develop resistance to invasive species.

Lamm concludes by highlighting the rapid pace of innovation in synthetic biology and the potential for global ethical divergence in its application. He expresses his excitement and fulfillment in the work being done at Colossal Biosciences.